Legislature(1993 - 1994)
02/17/1994 03:00 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 417 - POSSESSION OF FIREARMS IN SCHOOL LOCKERS Number 556 REP. BUNDE stated that HB 417 would give schools the statutory authority to define when lockers should be searched. He stated that Section 2 provides that a two week notice or a perpetual notice must be posted if lockers are going to be searched, thereby the student's right to privacy is reasonably protected. He then mentioned that San Diego, California, eliminated school lockers entirely, which lead to a large reduction in violence on campuses. He said he had a CS for HB 417 and asked that it be adopted. Number 629 REP. B. DAVIS made a motion to adopt the CS for HB 417. Number 631 CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, stated that the CSHB 417 was adopted as the working draft. Number 640 REP. BRICE stated that it is a greater offense to have a pair of brass knuckles on your person than it is to have a gun in school. He wondered if that issue could be addressed in the bill. Number 658 REP. BUNDE stated that AS 11.61.220 indicates that it is currently against the law to have guns in school lockers and that Section 1 in the CS amends the language to say "deadly weapon." He then said that deadly weapon means: "Any firearm or anything designed and capable of causing death or serious physical injury, including a knife, axe, club, metal knuckles, or explosives." Number 701 JERRY LUCKHAUPT, Attorney, Legislative Legal Counsel, Legislative Affairs Agency, answered legal questions pertaining to CSHB 417. He stated that it is currently a crime, in the fourth degree, to possess, manufacture, transport, sell, or transfer metal knuckles, and is a Class A misdemeanor. He then stated that when there are weapons involved in a fifth degree crime, possession of a firearm, or any other deadly weapon that is on school grounds, it becomes a Class B misdemeanor. He said the definition of deadly weapon does include metal knuckles. Mr. Luck further stated that the provision dealing with school grounds was enacted in 1990. The provision for metal knuckles has been around since the criminal code was revised. Number 730 REP. BRICE asked if HB 417 brought both crimes up to the same level of Class A misdemeanor. Number 734 MR. LUCKHAUPT answered that AS 11.61.210 would still outlaw the possession of metal knuckles and make it a Class A misdemeanor. He then said AS 11.61.220 and the amendment to that provision would close a loophole pertaining to the possession of deadly weapons on school grounds. He explained that when the legislature in 1990 proscribed the possession of firearms and defensive weapons on school grounds, it allowed for the possession of deadly weapons. He said that the problem is that possession of metal knuckles is a Class A misdemeanor, and the possession of metal knuckles on school grounds is a Class B misdemeanor. Number 774 REP. BUNDE stated that the legislation focuses on school grounds as opposed to someone possessing metal knuckles in a bar. He said that the previous legislature decided that people possessing deadly weapons on school grounds were more likely to be children, therefore warranting a Class B misdemeanor rather than a Class A. Number 786 REP. BRICE asked if CSHB 417 would bring the violation up to a Class A misdemeanor. Number 787 REP. BUNDE said no. He said it makes metal knuckles equal to having a gun on school grounds, which is a Class B misdemeanor. Number 790 REP. BRICE clarified by saying that the legislation would make possession of metal knuckles a Class B misdemeanor. Number 793 REP. BUNDE indicated that knuckles were being made a Class B misdemeanor on school grounds. Number 795 REP. BRICE asked if deadly weapons on school grounds could be brought up to a Class A misdemeanor. Number 812 REP. BUNDE said that the offenses were chosen to be Class B misdemeanors because the offenders are more likely to be children. He then speculated that perhaps it should be a Class A misdemeanor. He felt that as long as knuckles and other deadly weapons are equal to the severity of having a firearm on school grounds, he was comfortable with the legislation. Number 837 MS. KNUTH stated on behalf of the administration that the possession of guns on school grounds should be a felony. She explained that currently it is such a light offense that there is no flexibility within the system to deal with the problem. She said a maximum of 90 days is available for the criminal offense. She felt that the message to children is "this is the least of all possible serious offenses, when it's the most lethal of all possible circumstances." She said the proposal could be a great vehicle for attacking the problem. REP. BUNDE said that he was not opposed to possibly changing the misdemeanor class and was interested in hearing further testimony. Number 930 MR. MARSHALL testified in support of CSHB 417 as amended. He indicated that page 3, lines 2-3, specifies the grounds of the parking lot of a private or public school. He asked the committee to consider adding school sponsored events under Section 2. REP. BUNDE referred to lines 4-6 that state, "...without permission of the chief administrative officer of the school or district..." Number 956 MR. MARSHALL suggested that perhaps weapons should be restricted relative to school sponsored events or in vicinity to school sponsored events. He asked the committee to consider a provision regarding searches of school lockers that would include language that identifies a person (page 3, line 29-30) has reasonable cause to believe deadly weapons are likely to be found as a result of a locker search. Number 002 REP. BUNDE said he would be resistant to that type of change, indicating that a police officer may be searching for something other than a deadly weapon, e.g., contraband. Number 009 MR. MARSHALL suggested that a standard may want to be set so the administrator would be operating with authority relative to statute. TAPE 94-24, SIDE A Number 000 REP. BRICE indicated what he thought to be a great difference between reasonable and probable cause. Number 034 REP. BUNDE asked if Rep. Brice was referring to page 2, Section C. He stated that nothing in the section limits the ability of the police officer and other appropriate people to act in compliance with local, state, and federal law. Number 058 MS. KNUTH stated that she saw no reason to change Section C of the proposal. She maintained that the purpose of the subsection was to clarify that police officers still have the right to conduct a search. Number 092 REP. BUNDE clarified the meaning of a school sponsored event. He related that football games in Anchorage are played on city property, not on campus, and the concern is not to have deadly weapons allowed at school sponsored events. He said there are employees, students, and adults at school sponsored events, and he felt the scope of the legislation would not provide for all those people. Number 126 CHAIR TOOHEY stated that the legislation could not make the entire world safe. Number 142 MS. KNUTH asserted that the proposal has identifiable, physical boundaries. REP. G. DAVIS said that school regulations within a manual carry over to school sponsored events. He felt that the legislation should carry over to school sponsored events. Number 166 CHAIR TOOHEY, for clarification, asked if the legislation was focusing on students or bystanders at a school sponsored event. Number 174 REP. BUNDE related a scenario of a man driving into Mulcahey Park in Anchorage to change his tire while a high school football game is being played. He has a gun rack in his truck and is anticipating that he will go hunting the next day. Chair Bunde said in that instance there would be a boundary problem. Number 204 REP. BRICE said that there are rivals between various groups of students in Fairbanks. He expressed concern that youths are becoming more violent, and perhaps a youth who is found carrying a concealed weapon should be made to "do time for the crime." He felt there should be a provision that makes the offense as serious as being in possession of a concealed weapon in school. Number 250 REP. BUNDE said there may be an instance where an adult is carrying a gun for protection as he cuts through the back of the stands of a football field on his way to work. He questioned if the man should be guilty of an offense. Number 263 REP. BRICE said no. REP. BUNDE said, according to what Rep. Brice was saying, the man would be guilty. Number 269 REP. BRICE asked how his concerns could be legally addressed within the proposal. Number 274 MS. KNUTH said that the answer to both scenarios is gun registration. She said that it's difficult to say to children on one hand that they can't do something and turn around and have different rules for adults. She said that a law can be created for a crime that is age related. Number 317 REP. BUNDE asked if the verbiage "participating in a school event" would address the aforementioned concerns. He said that participating would mean that a person is actively involved in the event, and there would be a clear boundary. Number 334 MS. KNUTH said yes it would solve the problem as to who are the pool of violators. Although, she said, there is still a problem of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that a person was actually participating in a school sponsored event. Number 359 REP. BUNDE referred to page 2, line 4, and said that the phrase, "or participating in a school sponsored event without the permission of the chief administrative officer," could be added at the end of the sentence. Number 386 MS. KNUTH said that as a prosecutor, she was comfortable with that language and she could establish to a jury's satisfaction whether or not a person was participating at a school sponsored event or not. She questioned whether there needed to be a definition of "participating." Number 403 BILL CRAIG, Interim President, Alaska Native Blind, said there are laws concerning adults carrying concealed weapons, and he thought the prior discussion was irrelevant. He said that adults participating in a school event would already be covered. Number 425 MS. KNUTH said that most often that the proposed law would come into effect when discerning whether it is appropriate for the weapon to be in a case or in a trunk. Number 452 REP. BUNDE indicated that the weapon would have to be unloaded. He said if it is loaded, it would not be allowed in a trunk or gun case. Number 465 MR. LUCKHAUPT said the provision for school grounds is not concerned with whether or not the weapon is concealed. He said under the provisions of the proposed legislation, a person who was carrying a deadly or defensive weapon would be in violation. He was concerned as to "how far participating is going to go." He maintained that it is currently legal to carry an unconcealed deadly weapon. He further explained it would be possible that a person, carrying an unconcealed weapon, would be hunting or trapping near a rural school to watch a school sponsored cross country skiing event. Number 517 REP. BUNDE asked if "actively participated" would be better language. MS. KNUTH asserted that it would not clarify anything. She said participating is meaningful to her, and that identifies to her who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. Number 541 REP. BRICE asked if participating in a school sponsored event needed to be included. He said if someone is fixing a flat tire at a school, that person is not participating at a school event. Number 560 REP. BUNDE referred to legal counsel and said from his understanding, Ms. Knuth and Mr. Luckhaupt are comfortable with the language. He made a motion to amend CSHB 417 to include the statement: "participating in a school sponsored event without permission of..." on page 2, line 4, after the word "secondary school." Number 586 CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, said CSHB 417 as amended was so moved. Number 589 REP. BUNDE asked the committee if the offense should be a felony as opposed to a Class B misdemeanor. Number 599 MS. KNUTH conveyed to the committee that attorneys who have worked with juveniles have had the experience that a Class B misdemeanor does not give them enough flexibility to deal appropriately with the juvenile. She said that it is not worthwhile to go through a delinquency proceeding for a matter that is certainly indicative of a serious problem and that is only worthy of a Class B misdemeanor. She stated that her office was surprised to find that it was only a Class B misdemeanor and said they had assumed it to be a felony. She said it was a policy decision that needed to be made by the legislature. Number 634 REP. BUNDE asked the differences in penalties for misdemeanors and felony charges and level differences. Number 640 MS. KNUTH said that if a youth was to go through the juvenile system, there are not the same implications as there are with an adult. She said that a judge would not waive a juvenile to adult status simply for possession of a gun. She said the most serious of offenses would be waived; e.g., rape and murder. She further stated that the penalties associated with making the offense a felony under the proposed legislation, would still be minimal. She said if a convicted felon was in possession of a gun on school grounds it would be a Class A felony. Number 694 REP. BUNDE asked Ms. Knuth to explain the parameters of sentencing. MS. KNUTH stated that generally there would be no jail time imposed for this offense, but the maximum would be five years in jail and a $10,000 fine. Number 707 REP. BUNDE suggested that the measure is more of a psychological deterrent; as with a misdemeanor there is no jail time, and as a felony there is the potential of at least two years in prison (not likely to be imposed). Number 717 MS. KNUTH agreed and also said that there is the option of probation and supervision. She said the classification would imply that the offense is serious enough to warrant keeping an eye on the offender for at least a year. Number 724 REP. BUNDE asked if it would take major revisions of the proposal to make the offense a Class C felony. Number 733 MR. LUCKHAUPT said it would not be very difficult to make the change. Number 744 REP. BUNDE asked if the change could be made now or would it require more time. Number 748 MR. LUCKHAUPT said that he could be directed to amend AS 11.61.200. Number 755 REP. BUNDE said that if he had the support of the committee to amend that section, he would be willing to pass the bill out of committee. Number 762 REP. BRICE said that guns in school should be equal to the offense of having brass knuckles outside of school. He asked if there was a way to bring firearms up to a Class A misdemeanor. Number 786 REP. BUNDE maintained that if a change was to be made it should be a felony. Number 796 REP. BRICE referred to the scenario where a student had a gun and the police were unable to respond in an appropriate manner. Number 802 REP. BUNDE replied that the instance was a privacy issue and was not relevant. REP. BUNDE said the practical application of a misdemeanor would only involve a fine. He said he now felt that a classification of a felony would be more appropriate. Number 823 MS. KNUTH said that an adult would incur jail time for the offense. She further stated that a juvenile would go through an entirely different proceeding where the goal is rehabilitation. Number 838 CHAIR TOOHEY said that a five year old who goes to school with his father's gun would not be guilty of a felony. Number 846 REP. BUNDE indicated that there would be prosecutorial discretion. Number 857 REP. BRICE said he would like to see possession of deadly weapon by a student on school property be a Class A misdemeanor. Number 872 REP. BUNDE said he felt it would be appropriate to hold the bill and to give the issues further thought. Number 887 REP. G. DAVIS indicated that if changes were made there could be ramifications regarding the fiscal note. Number 896 REP. BUNDE asked how the change would affect the fiscal note. Number 899 MS. KNUTH said the fiscal note would remain at zero. Number 907 CHAIR TOOHEY stated that the bill would be held over until the next committee meeting. CHAIR TOOHEY brought HB 418 to the table.
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